Has anyone played or have an opinion about...?

I’ve played the original.

Objectively, I think Lost Ruins of Arnac is better. They’re both Deck Building Worker Placement Something (Wargame for Dune Imperium, Euro for Lost Ruins), and I found the balance, flow, and elegance of rules in Arnac just a bit better.

But Lost Ruins doesn’t have Been Gesserit, sooooo…

Joking aside, Dune Imperium is good. Very good. But some of the rules are a little clunky and the way the Houses work is kinda nonsense from a thematic perspective. But the game is very good. And assuming the app is less expensive than the actual game, it’s probably a safe recommendation, even if I think Lost Ruins is better unless you love the universe of Dune as much as I do.

Edit; I own both expansions and Uprising, but I haven’t tried them yet. Rise of Ix in particular looks very good, but I don’t think there’s anything “wrong” with either of the core games on their own.

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So I bought the app the other day…

I have played Arnak more because it feels a little more accessible among other reasons due to its more generic theme and is an easier teach probably because Dune (especially expanded) has a few more moving parts and the skirmish at the end needs a bit of an explanation as it is slightly more unusual than any of what Arnak does.

As @Marx says the games have a few things in common (you can try Arnak on BGA, I‘ll teach if you want). You have 2 workers and you have a deck that cards get added to. Okay.

(As an aside: both have excellent solo modes but you are not interested in that I think)

However, I personally feel like Arnak is smoother from the start (without expansions), and yet Dune:Imp is my favorite. Why?

  • Theme: Arnak does not really have a theme—yes yes it evokes Indy a bit, but I feel it is all very superficial. It is not a thematic game IMO. And I really like the Dune theme. And Dune:Imp does manage to evoke that better than Arnak does Indy.
  • Without the first expansion Dune:Imp is a bit clunky. The 1st expansion fixes a lot of that clunkiness by making more of the „worker spots“ viable (by replacing some) and adding more cards to the initially too thin market.
  • Thanks to the Skirmishes and Intrigue cards I feel like Dune:Imp is more interactive than Arnak which seems to be very heads down and interaction only relates to who gets what spot and reaches things first.

The main thing that Arnak does is that you play 5 rounds and each round lasts longer. My primary comparison when teaching is Terra Mystica for this one. You try to chain bonusses and actions into more and more and more until each round lasts longer and longer.

Dune: Imp does not do this at all. It‘s first 2 workers, then 3 (you have to buy the third) and you can possibly get buy a temporary worker with one of your workers changing the timing of when you end your round compared to other players. Dune‘s cards very much determine where you can send your agents on your turn and you can get some really nice card combos going by specializing on a certain faction.
After each round there is a skirmish that gives bigger and bigger bonusses as the game goes on. It‘s a race to 10 points that has also a fixed number of rounds (I have never seen a game end that way I think).

I think Dune Imp might be best at 3 (the solo pits you against 2 opponents) while I think Arnak is best at 2 because of the long thinky turns at the end.

I don‘t think the lack of expansions for the app will be an issue for long. While the spice trading is clunky and lacking in the base game the plans for the expansion have been announced. The app seems well implemented and I can‘t wait to play another game on it.

Arnak is a solid Euro combo-y deckbuilder with workers and action chaining. Dune: Imp is a bit more flashy with higher highs and lower lows when you can‘t get your spice/spacebucks/water machine going and the bots run away with all the skirmishes. Arnak has some more interesting card effects I feel than Dune:Imp base game but a lot of that gets better when Rise of Ix gets added in. I haven‘t played with my (owned) 2nd expansion (Immortality).

I have heard that the (for me still upcoming b/c German translation is slow) Uprising (I think NPI has done a bit on that) which is an expand-alone fixes some of the initial Dune clunkiness and that if you are interested in trying the cardboard at this point you might want to start with that.

If I could keep only one of these it would definitely be Dune:Imperium.
I would recommend giving this a try. The app is not cheap—boardgame apps have become quite expensive but both in space and money are still far cheaper than the cardboard versions.

PS I realize you didn‘t ask for a comparison but I have never seen one game mentioned without the other because they were published so close together. Sry. Hope this is still helpful.

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PS: I am thinking about the skirmishes some more… just don‘t expect too much of it. I‘ll explain some more.

During each round you may send an agent to a spot that has „sword symbols“ on it denoting that this spot allows you an additional effect „deploy troops“… everyone has a barracks and if you have troops in your barracks you can deploy those troops from there. Other spots allow you to get more troops into your barracks.

You can always see all the deployed troops on the field.
What you cannot see is the number of red swords on the cards the players are holding. Those get added when you „reveal“ at the end of the round.
People may also hold intrigue cards that have more swords on them.

In Ix you also get Dreadnoughts … (I don‘t remember the rules for those, just that they really dominate fights).

Troops get used up from the fighting so you need to be careful which battles you want to participate in.

But that‘s all there is to it. Not a lot of tactics just seeing who has the most troops at the end of the round.

(I like it. I just … skirmish may sound like it is more than it is)

edit:


This time not playing against the Solo-Mode AI but against the App AI. My deck building is still sub-par. I had not played in a while. I have tried to go for a Fremen / Bene Gesserit deck and I have managed to secure the Fremen Alliance (reach 4 on the faction track and then remain the front-runner (being at the top now, nobody should be able to take it from me). If I can win the next skirmish, I win the game. But my hand is meh and my resources aren’t great. I have no more troups on hand and only 2 more actions … and I lost because I built a shitty deck and couldn’t do anything useful with my last action. So I had to pass :slight_smile: Such is Dune.

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I think with dune imperium it’s got some really good stuff. It’s got a race to ten points which I think is one of my favourite types of victory conditions everything else seems like it works smoothly although I think the update has removed the effectively default moves

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I assume that winning a skirmish gets you something? :).

(Edit: Oh, yes. You said “… that gives bigger and bigger bonusses as the game goes on”.)

Arctic Scavengers is a deck-building game with a “skirmish” at the end of each round which sounds similarly uncomplicated – on their turn, each player spends as many cards as they wish to from the hand they’ve drawn, and withholds the remainder for the “skirmish” which happens once everyone has played; and whoever reveals the numerically-strongest skirmishing force wins and takes the top card from the “contested deck” of fancier items. Only one player (rotating each round) knows in advance what that card is.

As simple as that “skirmish” is, it’s the feature which elevated that game for me over other deck-building games I’d played, due to the added interaction, and the ever-present decision about whether to spend cards on your turn or hold them back (possibly for nought).

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Seems like Tom and Matt also chipped in for my benefit.

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I should have mentioned the Spacebiff reviews :wink:

I am really miffed that Uprising is currently still not available here. Maybe it’s time to actually get to Immortality.

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I’m now watching

and they just mentioned Arctic Scavengers as well.

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Nobody then? Oh well. Might just buy it anyway

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I think DuneImp is incredible. No Pun Included put the most pertinent comment in the most concise way. I don’t remember what they said but this is how I say it: mechanically, it’s another worker placement / deckbuilder mashup. But it’s a terrible deckbuilder and a weak worker placement game. The game itself is elsewhere.

The relation to Paleoamericans or Arnak is necessary due to the mechanics and the timing of release. But I put Arnak in the Everdell / Caledonia / Paladins / Gaia Mystica bucket where the core loop is meager resources, expensive actions, but a system of kickbacks where you job is to chain actions and extend your round to accomplish as much as possible.

DuneImp is more in the The King is Dead / Inis camp. The weakly implemented marquis mechanics only serve to support a soft fight, posturing for position and influence. There’s the one battle a round. There’s the race up the influence tracks. There are spaces that are clearly better than others on the board, but others may or may not have the resources (open) or cards (closed) to use them before you so there’s a lot of eyeing your opponents across the table trying to discern if and where the fight will be this round. The proverbial “phonebooth” is oversized so you may find yourself in close combat, you may retreat to opposite ends of the box to reset or tend to your personal projects, or you may take a giant swing at someone who just… doesn’t show up. The phonebooth isn’t big enough to turtle or divide and conquer, but over the game you’ll engage and disengage at different junctures.

I can’t comment on the original vs Uprising debate. I haven’t tried the app. The solo is well done and captures the feel of the fight even without humans there.

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Arctic Scavengers left the house after my first play of DuneImp. AS never hit.

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I bought the app after all this chat and (admittedly only 1 loss in, too little spice) can say it’s pretty darn good. Well implemented tutorial. AI seems smart enough at normal to sneak a win from under my nose and graphically it all works well enough that I can play it on a phone.

Would recommend it. Also worth noting that no expansions are available on it at this time, meaning uprising could be a while away.

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I am a bit late to the party, but I got to play Dune Imperium a couple of months ago (maybe 3?) and I really enjoyed it. I had no expectations from it (if anything, I was facing the game with a bit of scepticism, after similar disappointment with quick BGG top 100 rising games like Ark Nova) but I had a great time, even if finishing 3rd on a game of 4.

Definitely keeping an eye on Steam for it, this could very well complement my list of game adaptations there.

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Fairly recently getting Hadrian’s Wall has made me aware of Garphill Games, specifically their sets of trilogies, and even more specifically the West Kingdom games (Architects, Paladins, Viscounts), which I’d heard of but for some reason had assumed weren’t very good. A bit of closer inspection has suggested they might be very good indeed, and also might give me what I wanted but didn’t get from the Pillars of the Earth games. Additionally they seem to have good or even excellent solo modes. I think I now want all three games and probably the campaign expansion linking them all. Am I right?

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I’ve played Architects of the West Kingdom. Perfectly ordinary worker placement, absolutely nothing offensive about it at all and if you’ve got the rest of the games and you’re a completionist then I guess it’s worth getting. It is, however, 100%: workers-> resource cubes → VPs, so your mileage may vary depending upon how much you want one of those types of game. Not played the others, they might do something more interesting.

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I know I and @yashima can speak extensively on this! tl:dr, yes, I think they are all fantastic. And, oddly, all three are innovative and yet all three are similar to other games in my collection. And not always better than the games they are closest to. But I think they are pretty secure in the collection. Yes, I recommend.

Architects as mentioned is very similar to Lords of Waterdeep + Scoundrels of Skullport. Draw buildings (quests), collect building materials (recipe), turn in to complete card and get points. There is also a virtue track to be managed, with some quick and dirty benefits sending you down into negative points / can’t build the cathedral zone, and kissing up to the king shooting you up for points but locking you out of the juicy black market.

What I like about Waterdeep is twofold; first, the system of kickbacks that each quest gives you that allows you to chain quests into each other. That’s a nice layer of puzzle that is missing from Architects. Also the fixed game rounds really draws out the worker placement tension, where you can calculate how much you should be able to get done, but you’re jockeying for those spaces.

What Architects brings to the table are apprentices (like story quests) that give you permanent bonuses for the rest of the game. Those plus your starting character give some well done asymmetry that make each game different. As with Raiders of the North Sea, there’s also a clever twist on worker recall. Each space is pretty weak, but as you put more and more workers on it you get more and more benefit from that space. It’s up to other players to arrest your workers and send them to jail (for money) and then you have to take a turn to go collect them. Much more interactive than Waterdeep and there’s a push-your-luck layer that gets the heart pounding (ohpleaseohpleaseohplease). The game timer is player driven and the game goes faster and faster as you get better. This can make it more punishing for disparate skill levels and certainly unsatisfying if you are playing slower than the rest of the table and don’t get your plans finished.

I can’t pick a favorite between this and Waterdeep, but I like both very much.

Paladins is wildly different. Much more complex, fiddly, and one of the most solitaire games I own. It is closest to Ruins of Arnak or Everdell, with the caveat that it takes about 200% more brain to play effectively. Again worker placement. You get six workers per round, by default, and the good actions cost three workers each. So you can’t do hardly anything until you start assembling an engine to get extra workers or discounted actions. Assembling that engine is very freeform, like a box of legos, and the game invites you to try something different each time, while rewarding you for new and clever ideas. By the end of the game you have that exhilaration of acceleration as you are doing so much more than you ever imagined was possible.

I’ve only played this solo and not sure I’d play it with a group. Certainly not with anyone who wasn’t actively wanting to play. The teach and the tangled nature of the puzzle are just too much.

Objectively, I’d say this is absolutely better than Arnak or Everdell. However, I play the others more because they are easier to teach and table. But yeah, really like this one.

Viscounts is closest to Great Western Trail in my mind. Rondel, a handful of scoring archetypes where you have to choose one and commit, each game. Mild deckbuilding. In this case, GWT is clearly the superior game, making Viscounts the most superfluous of the West Kingdom titles. I also hate the Viscounts manual (though I have a pinned post over on BGG that summarizes all the errors and omissions, so there’s that). That said, if Viscounts is on the table, I have to play. The board is so inviting. The “just one more turn” thing is constant. The game is lighter than Paladins but crunchier than Architects and hits a nice middle ground of effort and enjoyment. You’re just running around in circles on this rondel, buying cards, collecting resources, and cashing in on scoring opportunities. It’s a cornucopia. All to say, I somewhat resentfully deeply enjoy this one even as I disrespect it.

Regarding solo, Architects is easy and good for learning the game. You’ll soon learn to job it and crave actual humans to play against. I’ve heard the “big box” storage solution has an upgraded mode that is better. Paladins solo may actually be the preferred way to play. It’s solitaire to begin with and the automa, while a bit fiddly, runs well once you’ve got it and does exactly what you need it to. Love this one. Viscounts has a similar fiddly but good and suddenly breezy once you’ve got it down automa. They miscalibrated this one so most people complain that it is too hard, and there’s some truth to that. You have to play really disciplined to beat the thing, and one of the four bots may be invincible. But it gives you a good game and moves quickly.

Bottom line, I do love all three, with qualifications in every case. None is perfect. All are secure in my collection and I do recommend them. Small boxes and a nice trilogy when completed.

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I own the West Kindom trilogy. In full. With all expansions and the bigger boxes.
I do not recommend doing that. The small boxes were fine and the expansions are superfluous for the later games and those for Architects fit in the smaller box as far as I remember.

  • These days I recommend having a look at Architects which I still enjoy. Get it if you have room for a non-Uwe-style worker placement game
  • I vastly prefer Legacy of Yu (the solo campaign game) over Paladins as nobody will play Paladins with me and Legacy of Yu has similarish mechanisms and is actually fun to play solo, as opposed to Paladins which gives me migraines when solo-ing because I keep forgetting to do stuff for the bot.
  • I have not played Viscounts in a while. It’s a mashup of some small-scale deck building and rondel movement, an medium-interesting way you play your cards to the action queue and some similarish action/bonus chaining as Paladins provides–what I call signature Shem Philipps style. You’ll recognize it from Hadrian’s Wall. It begins repeating

I am considering getting rid of both Paladins and Viscounts. Neither gets played.
I have to say that their Crowdfunding Campaigns run very smoothly. Their shipping was not too expensive (in the past) and they were very much on time and good at communicating.

But I find the elements appear too often in new remixes in these games and while that makes for a nice trilogy feeling, it also doesn’t help getting these to the table. Paladins is just too complicated for what it really does and a table hog. And so is Viscounts more or less.

If at all I would recommend giving the latest games that were published a closer look–which I never did. I had enough of their games for the moment. It felt samey. Which is a bit sad but that’s how I see it at the moment.

TLDR: I still recommend Architects for worker placement if you don’t have enough of those already and Legacy of Yu as a cool solo campaign experience.

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I have just played Architects (which I own) and Viscounts, I have never played Paladins. I also own Raiders of the North Sea from Shem Phillips.

I very much enjoy Architects, one of my favourite worker placement games. I particularly enjoy how varied it is in such a small box, and it has very original mechanisms that I haven’t found in any other game (prison or black market/cathedral access due to virtue come to mind). Viscounts I have played just once and I did enjoy the rondel adaptation it makes.

Also from Shem Phillips I have played Wayfarers of the South Tigris and Scholars of the South Tigris. I preferred Wayfarers (to the point I would not mind buying it) but I don’t remember anything so original as with Architects.

In all of them the resource management aspect takes a very important position, I enjoy the components, and the box sizes are very sensible.

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This was incredibly thorough and your enthusiasm for the games came across really well. It also confirmed to me that I will stay well away from ever playing any of them. Great work.

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Thank you! Especially to @Acacia and @yashima for going above and beyond.

I’m leaning towards getting Architects as a first step. Possibly with the expansion that brings an alternative solo mode.
If I love it I’ll probably end up getting the others in the trilogy. Even though they’re clearly different games, I’m a sucker for the idea of games that kind of link thematically, and I do strongly suspect I’ll like all these games.

Of course I’m inevitably now also extremely keen on Legacy of Yu. And sorely tempted by Raiders of Scythia…
And…

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