# Β Hydri VI: "Navabharata" **URL:** \ **Category:** Flat Black\ **Tags:** colony-description\ **Created:** [24 September 2019 02:51 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482 "2019-09-24T02:51:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [24 September 2019 02:51 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/1 "2019-09-24T02:51:34Z")
As I mentioned [under a more general heading](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/four-colonies-founded-as-national-prestige-projects-ca-ad-2120/145), Navabharata was one of four colonies founded by great powers in the 2120s A.D. in an unsuccessful quest for national prestige. All four were political failures because of the ~40 year delay between spending public money and getting any news of results. But they were demographic successes. The planet, Beta Hydri VI, is large, wet, and very warm, and it rotates rapidly. As a result the equatorial zone is uninhabitably hot and the mid-latitudes are swept by fierce hurricanes and intense zonal winds. Pools of cool air are trapped in the polar cells poleward of latitude 60°. Navabharata’s antarctic zone is ~30% continental and is the location of most of the habitation. The arctic zone is 90% oceanic, and was not settled until the Age of Piracy, after c. 400 ATD. Navabharata was politically and technologically vulnerable during the Age of Piracy, and suffered from a series of invasions. A multitude of local invaders established small tech-enabled oligarchies. Over a century these all adopted the god gambit; since the restoration of interstellar travel the gods of Navabharata have reinforced their divinity with imported tech, off-world technical training, and extensive body-modification. Politically, Navabharata is comminuted into myriads of small to tiny city-states, each with a god-gambiting technocratic aristocracy. Global government consists of an annual ceremonial assembly of ruling gods, a great council, and a shahranshah elected for life, but their only functions are to qualify Navabharata as a unified colony and to appoint the senator and justices of the Imperial district court. It is a conundrum what the _nivasees_ (commoners) of Navabharata mean when they agree that their technocratic rulers are gods, able to do miracles, and deserving of worship. The logic of the divine kingship on Navabharata revived or re-evolved features of the sacred kingship as copiously described by Sir James Frazer in _The Golden Bough_. When a god whom everyone depends on for essential miracles ails or fails the community is at terrible risk: the god must be immolated¹ and replaced. The custom is thus that ageing, failing, or reviled gods immolate themselves, or are sacrificed by a successor, or torn apart by a mob, with a new god taking over. Some communities have fixed terms of rulership, or regular ceremonial tests of fitness for their senior gods. Almost all turn on a god in times of public calamity. The old god’s body may be eaten, broken up for lucky charms, or used as a miraculous fertiliser. The gods of Navabharata have responded by developing such ploys as sneaking or fleeing off-world, substitutory sacrifices of symbolic successors, defeated enemies, representative animals, or even cake. But the ruling gods cannot persuade their pantheons to support abolishing the logic of the divine king (a) because of its memetic power, and (b) because it creates the main avenue for the ambition of cabinet-ranked gods. ##### Inspirational reading Frazer, Sir James G. _The Golden Bough_, chapters XXIV (“The Killing of the Divine King”), XXV (“Temporary Kings”), and XXI (“Sacrifice of the King’s Son”) Zelazny, R. _Lord of Light_ * * * ¹ Gary Gygax’s misapprehension notwithstanding, _immolate_ means “kill, as a sacrifice”, not “surround with flames”. It is derived from the participle _immolatus_ of the Latin verb _immolo_, which means “I sacrifice”. It referred originally to sprinkling victims with flour. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [24 September 2019 04:07 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/2 "2019-09-24T04:07:11Z")
# Beta Hydri system summary page ## Stellar data | spectral type: | G0 V | position | Equatorial co-ords | | --- | --- | --- | --- | | **mass:** | **1.1** M☉ | R.A: **0:25** hours | **X:**** 0.6** LY | | **luminosity:** | **3.19** L☉ | dec: **-77°** | **Y:** **-23.7** LY | | **age:** | **5.3** Ga | dist: **24.3** LY | **Z:** **5.3** LY | | **diameter:** | **0.015** A.U. | constellation: Hydrus | | ## Table of planets and moons | ID# | orbital radius | | world type | size | mass | g. | atmosphere | oceans | mean surface temperature | climate | solar day | habitability | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | | (A.U.) | (10,000 km) | | (D♁) | (M♁) | (g♁) | | | (°C) | | (hours) | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | **I** | 0.15 | | small rock planet | 1.01 | 0.71 | 0.7 | none | | 651 | infernal | infinite | | | **II** | 0.3 | | standard chthonian planet | 1.32 | 2.21 | 1.27 | none | | 386 | infernal | infinite | | | **III** | 0.46 | | small rock planet | 0.76 | 0.33 | 0.57 | none | | 254 | infernal | infinite | | | **IV** | 0.75 | | standard greenhouse planet | 0.84 | 0.53 | 0.75 | superdense corrosive | 6% water | 1080 | infernal | 165 | | | **V** | 1.1 | | standard greenhouse planet | 0.97 | 0.79 | 0.85 | superdense corrosive | | 520 | infernal | 15.6 | | | | | | 2 moonlets | | | | | | 68 | infernal | | | | **VI** | 1.7 | | standard garden planet | 1.06 | 1.08 | 0.96 | dense breathable | 80% water | 38 | very warm | 12.9 | 29% | | **VII** | 2.9 | | small rock planet | 0.45 | 0.07 | 0.36 | none | | -64 | frozen | 12.6 | | | **VIII** | 4.8 | | standard ice planet | 0.55 | 0.18 | 0.6 | very thin mildly toxic | | -106 | frozen | 27.5 | | | | 7.4 | | asteroid belt | | | | | | -140 | frozen | | | | **IX** | 12 | | medium gas giant | 11.54 | 400 | 3 | superdense corrosive | | | | 17.2 | | | | | | 6 moonlets | | | | | | -170 | frozen | | | | **IXa** | | 94 | small ice moon | 0.43 | 0.03 | 0.17 | standard mildly toxic | 64% hydrocarbons | -167 | frozen | 126 | | | **IXb** | | 108 | standard ice moon | 0.43 | 0.07 | 0.37 | thin mildly toxic | | -154 | frozen | 156 | | | **IXc** | | 128 | tiny sulfur moon | 0.26 | 0.01 | 0.12 | none | | -191 | frozen | 200 | | | **IXd** | | 145 | tiny ice moon | 0.17 | 0 | 0.07 | none | | -181 | frozen | 243 | | | | | | 1 moonlet | | | | | | -170 | frozen | | | | **X** | 19 | | small gas giant | 2.88 | 10 | 1.21 | superdense corrosive | | | | 128 | | | | | | 10 moonlets | | | | | | -190 | frozen | | | | **Xa** | | 28 | small ice moon | 0.32 | 0.02 | 0.2 | very dense mildly toxic | 76% hydrocarbons | -185 | frozen | 128 | | | **Xb** | | 33 | tiny ice moon | 0.1 | 0 | 0.05 | none | | -200 | frozen | 168 | | | **Xc** | | 40 | tiny ice moon | 0.14 | 0 | 0.07 | none | | -200 | frozen | 223 | | | **Xd** | | 50 | tiny ice moon | 0.13 | 0 | 0.08 | none | | -200 | frozen | 312 | | | | | | 1 moonlet | | | | | | -190 | frozen | | | | **XI** | 31 | | small gas giant | 2.88 | 10 | 1.21 | superdense corrosive | | | | 162 | | | | | | 7 moonlets | | | | | | -209 | frozen | | | | **XIa** | | 28 | small hadean moon | 0.31 | 0.01 | 0.13 | none | | -229 | frozen | 129 | | | **XIb** | | 33 | small hadean moon | 0.35 | 0.02 | 0.16 | none | | -229 | frozen | 162 | | | **XIc** | | 37 | small hadean moon | 0.35 | 0.02 | 0.15 | none | | -229 | frozen | 194 | | | **XId** | | 43 | tiny sulfur moon | 0.25 | 0.01 | 0.09 | none | | -222 | frozen | 244 | | | **XIe** | | 48 | tiny ice moon | 0.18 | 0 | 0.06 | none | | -216 | frozen | 294 | | | | | | 2 moonlets | | | | | | -209 | frozen | | | ---
**Author:** ![RogerBW](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/rogerbw/32/3_2.png) [@RogerBW](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/RogerBW)\ **Post date:** [24 September 2019 08:26 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/4 "2019-09-24T08:26:38Z")
Just as some people find it difficult to believe in FTL, I find it difficult to believe in life-controlling religions in SF settings. Things that people believe that give them comfort and an ethical code, sure. Things that force them to say “this person can tell me to do anything, and I will obey”, rather less so. _Traveller’s_ religious dictatorships never quite felt plausible to me unless they were really conventional dictatorships with some religious trappings. (And _Torg’s_ Cyberpapacy is basically the result of a reality collision, and absolutely not viable in the long term. I see that _Torg Eternity_ has changed that bit of lore…) All of which is to say that a model such as you’re proposing, which I assume develops out of “we give all the shiny tech to a few people so that they can fight off the invaders”, is one of the few that I feel _can_ work to produce religion-like effects on a large scale. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [24 September 2019 14:04 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/5 "2019-09-24T14:04:15Z")
I had it more in mind that the invaders conquered and kept all the shiny tech to themselves, using it to rule, and posing as gods to justify their rule in the way that many oligarchs have posed as priests. Think of how the Roman Empire got taken over by bishops and priests pretending that they alone could dispense sacraments; think in that way of conquerors from the stars with a real monopoly on high-tech kit and weapons. It is really very far from clear that the nivasees (commoners) on Navabharata mean god when they call their rulers “gods”. A lot of pundits assert that “god” is Navabharatese for “technocratic aristocrat”, that “miracle” is Navabharatese for “high-tech”, that “blasphemy” is Navabharatese for “sedition”, and that “sin” is Navabharatese for “capital crime”. _The nivasees don’t recount myths about their “gods”._ C. Northcote Parkinson argued (in _The Evolution of Political Thought_, ch. XII “The Theocracy of Communism”) that modern ideological governments have profound similarities to “agricultural type” sacred kingships because a similarity of their justifications for rule gives them similar political problems to solve. What I am suggesting with Navabharata is that monarchies or aristocracies that justify their rule by dispensing technological blessings will find similar solutions to the similar problems that the divine kingships recorded by Frazer, which justified their rule by pretending to dispense divine blessings. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [24 September 2019 14:16 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/6 "2019-09-24T14:16:10Z")
# Beta Hydri VI “_Navabharata_” | Planetology | | | | --- | --- | --- | | **class of star** | **G0 V** | | | **mean distance** | 1.74 | A.U. | | **perihelion** | 1.74 | A.U. | | **aphelion** | 1.74 | A.U. | | **obliquity** | 36° | | | **local year** | 2.18 | a. | | | 1484.1 | local days | | **local day** | 12.9 | hours | | | | | | | | | | **standard garden planet** | | | | **diameter** | 1.06 | D♁ | | | 13,554 | km | | **density** | 0.90 | × Earth’s | | | 5.0 | g/cm² | | **gravity** | 0.96 | g♁ | | | 9.4 | m/s² | | **escape velocity** | 11.3 | km/s | | **period of low orbit** | 89 | minutes | | **volcanism** | none | | | **tectonics** | none | | | | | | | **Climate** | | _very warm_ | | **mean temp.** | 38 | °C | | **perihelion temp.** | 38 | °C | | **aphelion temp** | 38 | °C | | **illumination** | 108% | × Earth’s | | | | | | **Oceans** | | | | **coverage** | 80 | % | | **composition** | water | | | **tidal range** | 0.15 | m | | | | | | **Atmosphere** | | | | **main gases** | N₂, O₂ | | | **traces &c.** | | | | **class** | breathable | | | **pressure** | 1.5 | bar | | | (dense) | | | Population & economy | | | | --- | --- | --- | | **habitability** | 29% | | | **carrying capacity** | 1.57 E+9 | | | **population** | 1.37 E+9 | | | **development level** | 3.7 | | | **real exchange rate** | 0.21 | ₢/¤ | | **GDP (nominal)** | 700 E+9 | ₢ | | **GDP/head (real)** | 2500 | ¤ | | **GDP/head (nominal)** | 510 | ₢ | | **equality** | | | | **spaceport class** | 2G | | | **nearest neighbout** | 7 - Paraíso | | | **distance** | 6.7 | LY | | **sector** | Central | | | **SHQ** | Old Earth | | | **distance** | 24.3 | LY | ---
**Author:** ![RogerBW](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/rogerbw/32/3_2.png) [@RogerBW](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/RogerBW)\ **Post date:** [24 September 2019 14:51 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/7 "2019-09-24T14:51:00Z")
> [@Agemegos](#): > > I had it more in mind that the invaders conquered and kept all the shiny tech to themselves, using it to rule, and posing as gods to justify their rule in the way that many oligarchs have posed as priests. Yeah. I don’t see that working if you’re starting from a modern society with a lot of secular people in it, or even modern religious believers who for the most part don’t regard miracles as part of their world-view. On the other hand, as you say, you can have things that look quite like it. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [24 September 2019 14:59 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/8 "2019-09-24T14:59:14Z")
I get to be artfully silent about whether Navabharata had a modern society with lots of secular people in it 350 years after it was cut off by the destruction of Earth, especially as the disaster of its privatisation might have led to very limited contact with and supply from Earth for 200 years before that. ---
**Author:** ![whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/whswhs/32/2794_2.png) [@whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/whswhs)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 03:16 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/9 "2019-09-26T03:16:45Z")
When I do diameter 1.06 x density 0.9 I get surface gravity 0.954, which rounds to 0.95. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 03:36 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/10 "2019-09-26T03:36:16Z")
Yeah, the diameter and density figures themselves are rounded from 1.062521004 D♁ and 0.904111211 ρ♁. Surface gravity works out to 0.960637151, which rounds to 0.96 g♁. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 05:08 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/11 "2019-09-26T05:08:07Z")
In another place, I wrote: > I expect all sorts of Vancean shenanigans with the royal sacrifices. I have — or any GM has — the entire _Golden Bough_ to crib for that. There will be places where the king abdicates for a day every year and provides a son, chosen and anointed peasant boy, acephalic bioroid, fatted ox, or very large cake as a substitutory sacrifice. There will be kings who make a bolt for the border when they see the writing on the wall. places with a ceremonial “flight of the king” (pursued by potential heirs), with varyingly real chances of his being caught and fed to the mob: perhaps in some places this will be an annual ceremony, with the king reigning as long as he is fleet enough to maintain his lead. In some places the pretence will be overt, the symbolism recognised. In others the king or the aristocrats will be trying to deceive the populace. I’m trying to work out who if anyone has the incentive to roofie the king and get him to sacrifice himself. Thinking about this, I realise that there must be at least one entrepreneurial pantheon on the planet that has the machinery to make “stunt doubles”, i.e. biofabricated fake corpses. It’s a macabre sort of food synthesiser used to make the hosts for a very peculiar sacrament. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 05:53 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/12 "2019-09-26T05:53:58Z")
For what it’s worth (which isn’t much), a previous description of Navabharata had the following to say about the history: > ## History to Imperial contact > > Navabharata was settled by an undercapitalised program of the Indian government, and suffered early economic collapse. Struggling to recover, in 2205 it was conquered by a mercenary force paid by the tycoon Dewan Daresingh, who made himself Kaisar. Population spread, technology declined, and the colony split up into a bewildering jigsaw of maharajates, rajates, nawabies, and aristocratic republics. > > ## Reintegration > > An Eichberger ship visited Navabharata in 297 PDT but found little of commerial interest. From 310 or so adventurers from Tau Ceti and other advanced colonies began using their technological edge to make themselves kings on Navabharata. The most notorious was Sekandar Dev, who attempted with mercenary troops and imported weapons. to conquer the whole planet from 317. In 328 Sekandar Dev was murdered and supplanted by a group from Orinoco who used advanced medicine etc. to pass themselves off as gods. This ploy was widely imitated, and from 346–380 Navabharata was racked by wars between rival oantheons using high-tech weapons. 1–2 million people were killed with fusion weapons, besides nearly 100 million dying in accidentally-introduced plagues, and 50 million in famines resulting from war and the introduction of plant diseases and pests. > > Intervention by the Eichberger Foundation from 375 cut off the importation of weapons and mercenaries and the further immigration of would-be gods. Navabharata was isolated during the Formation Wars, during which time the ‘gods’ settled down to form a patchwork of aristocratic states, and attempts at global conquest more-or-less ceased. > > ## Recent history > > Each of the major pantheons on Navabharata was represented at the negotiations leading to the Treaty of Luna, but they were persuaded to form a federation and sign as one colony. On the delegates return to Navabharata in 461 it took fifteen years to settle the terms on which the various pantheons would be represented on the Council of the Realm, and on which the chairmanship should rotate. The upshot has been a very weak central government, with few powers beyond appointing the Imperial judges. As far as colonial jurisdiction is concerned, 17 maharajahs, 119 rajahs, and 229 nawabs are virtually independent. The idea there was that Navabharata de-modernised for 450 years before the conquerors started carving out petty kingdoms for themselves with high-tech gewgaws, and that the god gambit was a ploy by one group that was successful for tactical and logistical reasons but that were imitated. Perhaps the other ruling groups had to apotheose to resist, perhaps it was just a fad. It doesn’t matter which. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 11:30 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/13 "2019-09-26T11:30:03Z")
# Beta Hydri VI “_Navabharata_” ## Planetology | | | | | --- | --- | --- | | **class of star** | **G0 V** | | | **mean distance** | 1.74 | A.U. | | **perihelion** | 1.74 | A.U. | | **aphelion** | 1.74 | A.U. | | **obliquity** | 36° | | | **local year** | 2.18 | a. | | | 1484.1 | local days | | **local day** | 12.9 | hours | | **standard garden planet** | | | | **diameter** | 1.06 | D♁ | | | 13,554 | km | | **density** | 0.90 | ρ♁ | | | 5.0 | g/cm² | | **gravity** | 0.96 | g♁ | | | 9.4 | m/s² | | **escape velocity** | 11.3 | km/s | | **period of low orbit** | 89 | minutes | | **volcanism** | none | | | **tectonics** | none | | | | | | | **Climate** | | _very warm_ | | **mean temp.** | 38 | °C | | **perihelion temp.** | 38 | °C | | **aphelion temp** | 38 | °C | | **illumination** | 108% | × Earth’s | | | | | | **Oceans** | | | | **coverage** | 80% | | | **composition** | water | | | **tidal range** | 0.15 | m | | | | | | **Atmosphere** | | | | **main gases** | N₂, O₂ | | | **traces &c.** | | | | **class** | breathable | | | **pressure** | 1.5 | bar | | | (dense) | | ## Population & economy | | | | | --- | --- | --- | | **habitability** | 29% | | | **carrying capacity** | 1.57 E+9 | | | **population** | 1.37 E+9 | | | **development level** | 3.7 | | | **real exchange rate** | 0.21 | ₢/¤ | | **GDP (nominal)** | 700 E+9 | ₢ | | **GDP/head (real)** | 2500 | ¤ | | **GDP/head (nominal)** | 510 | ₢ | | **equality** | 0.32 | | | **spaceport class** | 2G | | | **nearest neighbout** | 7 - Paraíso | | | **distance** | 6.7 | LY | | **sector** | Central | | | **SHQ** | Old Earth | | | **distance** | 24.3 | LY | ## Government | | | | --- | --- | | **world unity** | comminuted\* | | **type** | aristocracy | | **succession** | hereditary\* | | **structure** | occupational | | **features** | ruling class of body-modified “gods” | ## Law & enforcement | | | | | --- | --- | --- | | **source** | customary | | | **enforcement** | bailiffs & investigating magistrate | | | **powers & resources** | 3/10 | | | **judgement** | magistrate | | | **procedure** | investigative | | | **protections** | 1/10 | | | **penalties** | death | for major felonies | | | flogging, hard labour | for lesser felonies | | | caning, fines | for misdemeanours | | **peculiar laws** | death penalty for “blasphemy” | | | | telecoms strictly licenced | | | | high-tech vehicles restricted | | | | serfdom | | | | “unnatural” sex prohibited | | | | body-mods restricted | | ## Society | | | | --- | --- | | **diversity** | strictly conformist | | **social unit** | guilds & co-operatives | | **household type** | extended (matrilocal)\* | | **kinship system** | matrilineal | | **gender authority** | patriarchal\* | | **sex roles** | discriminatory\* | | **stratification** | extreme | | **social mobility** | marital | | **customs** | pervasive ceremonies | | | elaborate etiquette | | | clothing proclaims status & social mode | | | extortionate obligation system | | | amok | | | ritual/symbolic cannibalism of failed rulers | | **values** | beauty | | | sensual pleasure | | | flamboyance | | | deference | | | | | | | | **taboos** | disrespect | | | slovenliness | | | sexual perversion | | | | | | | | | | ---
**Author:** ![RogerBW](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/rogerbw/32/3_2.png) [@RogerBW](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/RogerBW)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 11:34 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/14 "2019-09-26T11:34:15Z")
Surely one person’s flamboyance and sensual pleasure is another person’s sexual perversion? ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 11:44 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/15 "2019-09-26T11:44:18Z")
Yes, and just as surely people have guilty secrets. (“Values” and “Taboos” need a bit of polishing. I’m not happy that I am expressing myself effectively in describing Navabharata’s other shames. A Navabharatan becomes ashamed/angry if he is made to give something without getting a _quid pro quo_, or if he has been trespassed against without retaliating.) ---
**Author:** ![whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/whswhs/32/2794_2.png) [@whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/whswhs)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 11:55 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/16 "2019-09-26T11:55:21Z")
Glancing over those statistics, I’m curious: What is the measure of “equality” and how is it applied game mechanically, if it is? Just looking at the matter narrativistically, I’m seeing a planet where a small elite portray themselves as literal gods (or maybe not, depending on translation!) and rule their petty theocracies with near-total autonomy being rated as 0.32, and I’m not sure that an equality of, say, 0.032 would look like. ---
**Author:** ![whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/whswhs/32/2794_2.png) [@whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/whswhs)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 11:57 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/17 "2019-09-26T11:57:35Z")
> [@Agemegos](#): > > (“Values” and “Taboos” need a bit of polishing. I’m not happy that I am expressing myself effectively in describing Navabharata’s other shames. A Navabharatan becomes ashamed/angry if he is made to give something without getting a _quid pro quo_ , or if he has been trespassed against without retaliating.) In “On the Genealogy of Morals,” part II, Nietzsche attributes the origins of justice to the early generalization “Everything has its price; all things can be paid for”—with the price of injuring someone being that other people will make you suffer. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 12:12 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/18 "2019-09-26T12:12:04Z")
“Equality” is one minus the Gini coefficient of household income per household member after taxes and transfers. A value of 0 would represent an infinitesimal proportion of people getting all the income, and 1 would represent everyone having the same income. 0.32 is a very small value: the most unequal countries on Earth these days have values of about 0.38, and those are very undeveloped countries in Africa, in the South Africa to Botswana range. It is strictly an economic measure, hence its placement in the table. It does not (directly) take social or political inequality into account (though those do of course produce economic inequality, which does get included). P.S. It looks as though the USA has an “equality” of about 0.62. So the get the equivalent of Navabharata you could take half of the income from every family in America and give it all to whomever currently has the most income. Suppose that 99% of the population all had the same income, and that the remaining 1% each had 200 times as much. The Gini coefficient of income would be 0.34. ---
**Author:** ![whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/whswhs/32/2794_2.png) [@whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/whswhs)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 12:29 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/19 "2019-09-26T12:29:52Z")
> [@Agemegos](#): > > “Equality” is one minus the Gini coefficient of household income per household member after taxes and transfers. On one hand, I’m not surprised to see you using the Gini coefficient; it’s one that an economist would naturally think of. On the other hand, I’m curious as to how you arrived at that rating for Navabharata and more generally how “equality” is determined when you’re creating inhabited planets. On the gripping hand, I’m even more curious about whether you’ve worked out a way to apply the index game mechanically. ---
**Author:** ![Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/agemegos/32/15077_2.png) [@Agemegos](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/Agemegos)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 12:34 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/20 "2019-09-26T12:34:31Z")
At the moment the whole procedure is very unsatisfactory: I look at sorted a list of countries and pick a value that seems about right. ---
**Author:** ![whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/user_avatar/discussion.tekeli.li/whswhs/32/2794_2.png) [@whswhs](https://discussion.tekeli.li/u/whswhs)\ **Post date:** [26 September 2019 12:54 UTC](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482/21 "2019-09-26T12:54:58Z")
> [@Agemegos](#): > > At the moment the whole thing is very unsatisfactory: I look at sorted a list of countries and pick a value that seems about right. Well, eyeballing it might easily be as accurate as most game mechanical approaches. What I kind of would like now is maybe something akin to the GURPS CR system, with “equality” scores from 0 to 6, and sketches of the resulting societies. So for example ER 4 would be a country like the United States. Of course the extremes would be more Platonic ideals than actual social patterns: a godking served by a vast army of destitute servants, or a hivelike communism, maybe. (Though you could turn the first into the second very easily by removing the godking, or replacing them with the collective personality of The State or The People.) _Addendum:_ Dividing the percentages up at 91.67, 75.00, 58.33, 41.67, 25.00, and 8.33, I see that the world basically splits up into three groups: Southern Africa, the less developed world, and the more developed world. Iceland and Ukraine _almost_ make it over the edge into a fourth group. On the other hand, the US Census Bureau gives the US a much higher Gini, with only two states falling into what I’m calling the “developed countries” range: Utah and Alaska. It’s curious that the World Bank and Census Bureau estimates are so different; I wonder how their methodologies differ? [Next page](https://discussion.tekeli.li/t/hydri-vi-navabharata/482.md?page=2)